Why are atheists hostile?

I saw this comment on reddit:

"I like to think of myself as a rational person. I'm an engineer by trade, and a practicing Christian. I undstand that's not a popular viewpoint around here, and I can even understand why. I choose to take some things on faith - I don't have emprical data to support it. Furthermore, I can undestand that there are some Christians out there who may be a little (or a lot) off the rocker (Westboro Baptist Church).

If any of you has any questions on Christianity, I'm happy to answer them. I love sharing my beliefs with people, but I understand that not everyone is going to agree with me. I believe that you are wrong, and I would like to share why with you, but if you don't want to hear it, that's OK, I'm not going to try to cram something down your throat, even if it's right. I'm not going to try to tell you being a Christian is mandatory for you to be a good person. Finally, I'm not going to hold you to the Christian moral code.

Now that you know a little about me, I have a very simple question: I disagree with you, but I can tolerate your beliefs and we can get along just fine - even have debates on several points. Why do so many atheists feel the need to be combative with Christians?"

And I responded with the following. I was pretty happy with it, so I've decided to post it here.

""Why do so many atheists feel the need to be combative with Christians?"

For one thing, the fact that you see it this way is a problem. I'm not trying to engage Christians in combat. I'm trying to engage the idea of Christianity in combat.

Why?

Because that is how we decide which ideas are best. We allow our ideas to compete in intellectual combat, and the ideas that don't survive get abandoned, and the ones that do thrive.

I get the feeling that some of what you see as us being combative is actually us doing what we do to ALL ideas.

There is a great story Dawkins likes to tell about a scientist who spent 12 years on his research. Well a younger scientist eventually gave a presentation on why the other scientist was wrong. What was the response from the older scientist? He said "Thank you, for these many years I have been wrong." And the audience applauded.

We see being willing to put your ideas up to scrutiny as a virtue. We see those that question those ideas as virtuous as well.

But I say some of what you see is that for a reason. Some of it isn't. Sometimes we really are fighting you. And there are two primary reasons for this:

1. We will fight when religion seeks to impose itself on us.

2. We will fight when religion causes harm.

And the sad truth is, both are going on almost constantly.

For example, when a Christian group fights for the right to display a nativity scene on public land... then we respond by using the rules that they fought for to put up our own sign... yes, we are fighting. Because your group is spending public money on your religion. You might as well just put a gun to our heads and take the money directly from our wallets.

The second item I think is going to be a source of conflict because it's obvious to me but not obvious to you. Dismissing things like religious wars for now, there is a lot of subtle harm caused by religion. Sexual guilt for example. Telling children that sex is wrong, that they should be ashamed of their bodies. Telling people masturbation is wrong. Or the psychological harm that comes from telling someone they are a "wretch" who deserves hellfire unless they bow down. Or the harm that comes when you pretend that the bible is a "good book" which breeds folk like Fred Phelps who tell the parents of dead soldiers they are burning in hell. I know, you aren't Fred Phelps... but every time you call that book a "good book" you spread the meme that encourages that sort of thinking. Then there is the harm that comes from magical thinking. People waste time and money on faith healers and potions and prayer cards and so on. And those scams are all tolerated because they are labeled "religion." But you also have things like Lordes, the Catholic tourist trap that convinces victims of serious diseases to fly around the world to take a communal bath with 80 million other people with serious diseases and actually lower their survival rates significantly. I could go on and on and on. The philosophy of Jesus is destructive. The theology of Christianity is destructive. These things cost people time and money. They cause strife and suffering. They seek to prevent people who happen to be gay from enjoying whatever sort of marriage they want to have. They hold back scientific progress in favor of mystical nonsense.

I suspect we just aren't going to agree on that one. But if you see us fighting those types of harm, and you ask "What are you fighting for?" The answer is you. We are fighting for you because we detest what your faith has done to you. We have seen our friends and family fall victim to these same ideas, and so yeah, we fight it."

Perhaps I'll clean it up and make it into an essay or something later.

Open-minded.

I was recently talking to a girl, a potential date, and she mentioned she believes in "spirits."

I like to be up-front about these things so I told her I am skeptical about "spirits."

She asked me if I was open-minded on the issue, and I said yes. We continued to talk about it, and eventually she accused me of being closed-minded. This confused me. I said "I'm not... I'm willing to have my mind changed. I'm willing to listen to your evidence... but just because I don't accept it doesn't mean I'm closed-minded."

That ended that conversation.

Today I was talking to another girl, another potential date. This time the topic was adoption. We were talking about kids. I said "I've always wanted to adopt." She said she wanted to give birth. She said she thought adoption was noble, or something like that, but that she didn't want to do it. I said it's what I wanted to do.

Fine, right? Plenty of fish in the sea, no worries, I'm more than willing to move on.

But then she says "I'm willing to be open-minded about adopting, why aren't you open-minded about natural birth?"

I was surprised. Again I said "I am open-minded... I'm willing to listen to anything you have to say on the matter, but none of it has changed my mind so far. That doesn't mean I'm closed-minded, just that you have not convinced me."

She called me an asshole and that was that.

I hear the same thing from theists all the time. They are convinced that god is real... yet they accuse me of being closed-minded. Even though I'm willing to listen to their arguments.

What is the disconnect here? Why is my definition of open-mindedness so different from other people's? Anyone have any idea?

Obama vs. Superman vs Abraham Lincoln

There is a scene in Superman II where Clark and Lois are visiting Niagara falls. Clark (SPOILER ALERT!) changes into Superman to save a boy who falls into the falls (heh). As he is returning the boy to his greatful mother, you can faintly hear an old woman say something like "what a nice Jewish boy." Clearly refering to Superman.

My grandmother is Jewish. She once tried to claim Abraham Lincoln the same way. "I was reading an article that said Abraham Lincoln had a Jewish great-grandparent" or someting like that.

I've seen atheists do this as well. They will try to claim "ownership" of people they like. I've seen this recently with both Barack Obama and Abraham Lincoln.

Superman isn't Jewish.

Abraham Lincoln wasn't Jewish or an atheist.

Barack Obama is not an atheist.

...and that's okay.

It's okay to like someone you disagree with.

Unfortunately us humans have something called ingroup/outgroup bias.

We tend to like those we see as belonging to our group, and dislike those we see as not belonging to our group. 

What is often missed as that ingroup/outgroup bias goes both ways. Not only does it effect how we feel about people in and out of our groups, it also makes us want to move people in and out of our groups.

When we already like someone, we want them in our group. When we dislike someone, we want them out.

Theists are wrong about god. That doesn't make them bad, we all know that. Right?

The reason I dislike theism is because it causes harm. Most of the people it causes harm to are theists themselves. They are victims, not idiots. They have been duped.

I don't think we are going to fix that by perpetuating ingroup/outgroup bias.

So let's stop trying to claim Obama, Abraham Lincoln, and whomever else. Not because they aren't atheists, but because it doesn't matter what they believe.

At least that is one way we can get away from ingroup/outgroup bias. Do you have any other suggestions? I'd love to see them in the comments.

Trying something new. Again.

I've been an atheist my entire life, and most of that time I've tried to be active in the community.

I've gone to local atheist meetups. I've been in Facebook groups. I've been a member of the American Atheists and the FFRF. I have even tried to start a local atheist group, modeled off of groups like the ACA. It actually started when I regularly participated in the IRC chatroom for the Infidel Guy show. 

I've never found any of these things very satisfying though. The atheist meetups weren't horrible, but they didn't really want to do anything about the issues we discussed. It felt more like an atheist singles group. With a male-to-female ratio of 10-to-1. With a total of 11 members.

The facebook groups are mostly atheists patting each other on the back. Honestly, I get more out of listening to podcasts in this regard. It's nice to talk about things and agree with people... but that isn't all I want to do. I want to do more.

I thought the larger atheist organizations would be better. I've even spoken to some of the fairly prominent members of those groups. Annie Laurie Gaylor of the FFRF for example. I wanted to see if I could get one of those billboards put up in my town. It turns out they are now working with a national company. I already do almost all of the things they suggest on their participation page.

My attempt to start my own atheist organizatoin failed miserably. I couldn't find a single other person within 20 miles willing to participate.

Then, of course, there is the comic. I did manage to stir up a bit of activity there, but it didn't last. The constant negative feedback hasn't helped. My artist is ready to quit. I can tell it's not going to last much longer.

This blog is yet another attempt to do something. I'm not sure what yet. I'd really like to find some sort of niche within atheist activism. Maybe writing about it will help me find that niche.